Jump to content


Photo

Sea Of Cowards Clipping!


  • Please log in to reply
281 replies to this topic

#41 jokrogel

jokrogel

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 780 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 02:47 AM

If you guys are upset with how the album sounds, do what I did and send TMR a message!

Here's what I sent:

"Hi, I have a question... why does "Sea of Cowards" sound so awful? I excitedly bought both the CD and vinyl releases today but they both sound overly compressed and clip nearly constantly. Here's a waveform of 'Jawbreaker', taken directly from the CD: http://img189.images.../picture7os.png See all of those red areas? That's where the song clips.

I mean, it's cool that you guys constantly talk about how you record to analog tape, but why not follow that up by mixing and mastering on analog as well? The analog-mastered vinyl releases of "Elephant", "Icky Thump", and "Consolers of the Lonely" all sound fantastic and are many times better than the audio mess that "Sea of Cowards" is. "


It'll probably do nothing, but I'd think it'd be good to let them know that we don't like how they're fucking up their music by mastering it so badly.


I salute you for writing to them. They are a Sea Of Cowards if they won't give you a proper answer. I really hope this is the last time they do a huge mistake like this. Please post the answer on the forum.

#42 surfingelectrode

surfingelectrode

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 64 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 02:56 AM

I salute you for writing to them. They are a Sea Of Cowards if they won't give you a proper answer. I really hope this is the last time they do a huge mistake like this. Please post the answer on the forum.


I will.

ACertainMan, I've got absolutely nothing against the music... I'm really loving this album more and more each time I listen to it, but, frankly, it sounds like total shit. If you have a turntable and copies of both Icky Thump and Sea of Cowards, listen to them back to back and you'll see what I'm talking about.

#43 jokrogel

jokrogel

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 780 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 03:03 AM

I think you folk have your expectations set too high. There is so much complaining about this album... It's the second album in a year-year and a half, at least your not waiting for eons. Jack White does far more than any artist i have ever heard of in shear output alone, on top of that producing and running a label. Jack White fans get more stuff than any other fan base and still there is so much complaining and demanding that I can't help but doubt the honesty of anyone who says they like the album. This is the kind of stuff that pissed White off months ago and got the album name dedicated to cowardice... Just shut it and enjoy the damn music


So you think it's ok to do shit because he do so much work? He records in analog so why does he mess it up like this by using an over-the-top-compressed cd maser as the source for the vinyl? He could do a lot of stuff and do it the right way, don't you agree? If he like this Vlado Meller guy so much, then let him only master the cd (which is also the source for the iTunes files) and then someone like Kevin Gray or Steve Hoffman could do a good sounding analog master for the vinyl. This way people could here the difference between the cd and the vinyl and more people would start to by vinyl records, which would make Jack happy.

Edited by jokrogel, 12 May 2010 - 03:05 AM.


#44 ACertainMan

ACertainMan

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 363 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 04:22 AM

I didn't say it was okay to "do shit." What i said was that you folk have set your expectations too high, hence thinking that this album mastering is shit. If folk want to write letters and protest the products he puts out, they ought to consider first how lucky they are to have someone who actually writes and cares for good music. For all we know the "clipping" was intentional to set a mood for the album. Since the release there have been far more posts here complaining about the album because it doesn't meet your expectations than posts saying anything positive about the album. Or people saying that they like the song, just not the recording, and yes occasionally artists run into producers who don't do justice to their work in their minds, but if Jack has worked with these people in the past the effects are obviously ones he is happy with, so production and songwriting go together in this case. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

#45 tubezipper

tubezipper

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 129 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 04:35 AM

. For all we know the "clipping" was intentional to set a mood for the album.


bullshit. You are misunderstood

#46 hannibal_lusty

hannibal_lusty

    Elephant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,841 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:21 AM

I didn't say it was okay to "do shit." What i said was that you folk have set your expectations too high, hence thinking that this album mastering is shit. If folk want to write letters and protest the products he puts out, they ought to consider first how lucky they are to have someone who actually writes and cares for good music. For all we know the "clipping" was intentional to set a mood for the album. Since the release there have been far more posts here complaining about the album because it doesn't meet your expectations than posts saying anything positive about the album. Or people saying that they like the song, just not the recording, and yes occasionally artists run into producers who don't do justice to their work in their minds, but if Jack has worked with these people in the past the effects are obviously ones he is happy with, so production and songwriting go together in this case. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I don't think you quite get what we're talking about. Mastering has NOTHING to do with writing and recording. Jack White has no involvement with the process and it has absolutely nothing to do with producing or mixing. If you can't notice it good for you but don't start blasting other people for expecting an album to be mastered right. This has nothing to do with 'expectations' it's inly genuine fans of the album who would complain about this.
The more I listen the album, the more I love it and the more the mastering pisses me off.

#47 ACertainMan

ACertainMan

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 363 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:44 AM

Fine, didn't mean to interrupt the bitching so severely.

#48 jokrogel

jokrogel

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 780 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:45 AM

I didn't say it was okay to "do shit." What i said was that you folk have set your expectations too high, hence thinking that this album mastering is shit. If folk want to write letters and protest the products he puts out, they ought to consider first how lucky they are to have someone who actually writes and cares for good music. For all we know the "clipping" was intentional to set a mood for the album. Since the release there have been far more posts here complaining about the album because it doesn't meet your expectations than posts saying anything positive about the album. Or people saying that they like the song, just not the recording, and yes occasionally artists run into producers who don't do justice to their work in their minds, but if Jack has worked with these people in the past the effects are obviously ones he is happy with, so production and songwriting go together in this case. If you don't like it, don't buy it.


- Our expectations are not too high. Period. Many people who have listened to the album think that the mastering is shit.
- Of course we are happy that Jack White is a produtive performer who writes and releases a lot of music. We just think that he could do it in a better way by letting someone do a proper analog master for the vinyl (and of course it would be nice if the cd souded better, too)
- Clipping was not intentional. They didn't do it - Vlado Meller did it. TDW do have distortion pedals etc. That is a different issue.
- There is a different thread called "Sea of Cowards / I hope you can swim" to discuss the music.
- We like it and we buy it, but we get dissapointed because of the loudness issue that makes the music sound muddy, distorted and we can't hear the different instruments and vocals clearly because of the clipping that make all sound like a distorted mess. We would like to hear the bits clearer and we would like to be able to listen to these albums without getting a headache and fatigued ears.

I would like to see Jack White step out into the Vault and give his view on this subject like he did with the reviewer that didn't like the new songs.

Edited by jokrogel, 12 May 2010 - 05:47 AM.


#49 ACertainMan

ACertainMan

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 363 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:49 AM

^ Understood and agreed.

#50 jokrogel

jokrogel

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 780 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:58 AM

I think it sucks if they hire some Vlado Meller - who's responsible for several victims of the loudness war (RHCP Californacation, TWS Icky Thump cd...) - doing a CD master, and then they use that digital cd master as the source for the analog vinyl record. I am not a professional or an audiophile but I can hear the difference between the Icky Thump cd and vinyl and I can hear the difference between R.E.M.'s Accelerate on cd and vinyl and both of these had different guys doing the mastering for vinyl and you sure can hear it.

If an album is recorded to analog tape, why brake the chain by using a digital CD master for the vinyl? Third Man Records should have their albums mastered specifically for vinyl, in addition to the cd mastering. This has a lot to do with principles. Jack tells how much he loves analog gear, so why doesn't he go all the way? I believe you've all read the great story by mastering engineer Steve Hoffman about the recording of Icky Thump: http://www.stevehoff...ight=icky thump so according to Steve Hoffman Jack has a little audiophile in him, as someone has said that Jack couldnt care less about these issues. Vinyl should be analog all the way, especially if it's recorded to analog tape, an analog master should also be made for vinyl.

And if TMR uses the same over-compressed cd masters for the vinyl records (hopefully this isn't the case with Sea Of Cowards although the liner notes apperantly state that Vlado meller mastered the abum) something MUST be done about it!

Edited by jokrogel, 12 May 2010 - 06:40 AM.


#51 getbehindmejack

getbehindmejack

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 876 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 07:03 AM

TMR should just sell reel-to-reel tapes of the album priced at $333 per foot of tape. Hi-fi enthusiasts rejoice, flippers will not buy into it as they fail to see the market for reel-to-reel tape. "Reel-to-reel: It's so real!"




I'm totally kidding. :lol: Still waking up at work....

Edited by getbehindmejack, 12 May 2010 - 07:04 AM.


#52 getbehindmejack

getbehindmejack

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 876 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 08:05 AM

I found this review of him on discogs, though I'm not sure how much of an expert this Polarix dude might be:

Review by Polarix Apr 06, 2008
Unfortunately, I have to caution anyone who's ended up on this man's page to stay *As Far Away* from *Any* of these releases as possible.

If there's any way you can find a copy of one of these albums in any other format that he has not touched, you're highly encouraged to do so.

Meller is probably the big name in the loudness war, and functionally seems to be a huge proponent of maxing out the loudness of any CD he masters. This makes the CD sound "better" than another properly mastered CD at a given system volume to the extent that the human brain tends to pick out louder noises as sounding better.

The flip side, and something that will be blindingly obvious when one of his masterings are compared against a proper master, is that the sound becomes extremely heavily compressed under his treatment, and all the subtle dynamics of the music are lost.

If you are able to adjust the volume of your system to a level you desire, there is no reason to opt for one of Meller's discs over anyone else's. One common place to look for better masterings of these discs are those vinyls that Steve Hoffman works on, but pretty much any other version that this man has not touched will be more than worth your while.


The real tragedy of this man's work, in my opinion, is the album Californication by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. It was only ever mastered by him, he did a terrible job, and as a result one of the most intellectually satisfying pop albums of the decade has been utterly destroyed in the ears of many an audio sensitive individual. We can only hope the record companies will work with those willing to clean up after this man's mess, and provide the world with decent remasterings of the more brilliant of the works he has destroyed.


So that's one person's opinion. I'd have to hear all of his work to really speak more on the issue.

Edited by getbehindmejack, 12 May 2010 - 06:20 PM.


#53 jokrogel

jokrogel

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 780 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 08:11 AM

I really can't understand why Jack White / Third Man Records can hire a guy like this and why they didn't hire Steve Hoffman - or someone else who does a good job - to do a proper analog master for the vinyl. I want an explanation.

#54 elizab0727

elizab0727

    Elephant

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,269 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 08:27 AM

I wonder if this wasn't a deal with the devil that is Warners. If I with my tin ear can hear a difference of course Jack can too. Record companies like loud --they don't want their track to sound too soft next to the next track on the customer's ipod.

I think it's practically our duty as music fans to complain. We can hear this and we don't like it. :angry:

#55 Bluey

Bluey

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 862 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 09:28 AM

^^ This is more than likely the case. The labels (Warners in this case) are the ones to blame. Meller just happens to be the guy prepared to do the job.

#56 tubezipper

tubezipper

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 129 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 09:32 AM

this is all just so wrong :(

we need an explanation, and this thread to catch jacks eye

#57 tubezipper

tubezipper

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 129 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 09:35 AM

Will There Be Enough Volume?

http://www.myspace.com/vladomeller

Meller has done so much mastering. How can people find this acceptable? It ain't mastering. Its just increasing the gain to peak as fuck and lose all the dynamics and kill our ears!



Sea Of Cowards does not deserve this treatment. Neither does any record for that matter. But this album is so fucking good that it tears me apart that it has to be this way :( :( :(

Edited by tubezipper, 12 May 2010 - 09:40 AM.


#58 AnonymousBrunette

AnonymousBrunette

    Get Behind Me Satan

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 601 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 09:41 AM

This may be the most constructive thread I've seen in years. Sounds perfectly legitimate to me. Compression is a music killer.

#59 tubezipper

tubezipper

    Icky Thump

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 129 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 09:48 AM

Posted Image

vinyl vs cd


http://www.stevehoff...ad.php?t=211213

Edited by tubezipper, 12 May 2010 - 10:02 AM.


#60 Little Cream Soda

Little Cream Soda

    White Blood Cells

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 7,144 posts

Posted 12 May 2010 - 10:02 AM

I don't understand why you all complain about it being loud. Just play it quieter? it's not that hard to turn the volume down surely?

Spoiler


but in all seriousness, I don't think it's as bad as Icky Thump, it's nothing to complain much about really in my opinion.

Edited by Little Cream Soda, 12 May 2010 - 10:03 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users